Episode 157: How Profit First Helps Esteban Andrade Manage Five Revenue Streams
The Profit First REI Podcast
February 20, 2023
David Richter
Summary:
Many entrepreneurs struggle with financial management because they don’t know these three essential numbers: what you’re making, spending, and keeping. Having multiple revenue streams means knowing all this information from different businesses.
Today’s guest, Esteban Andrade, provides a unique look into the Profit First model. Unlike other guests who have applied the model and reaped its benefits, Esteban is in the middle of the book, slowly being made aware of his pain points and how to overcome them for his five revenue streams. Let’s dive in and learn with him!
Key Takeaways:
[00:47] Introducing Esteban Andrade and His Background
[03:31] About His Virtual Assistant Service
[08:02] Esteban’s Different Revenue Streams
[14:15] Esteban’s Financial Situation
[17:46] How Much Esteban Makes, Spends, and Keeps
[20:37] On Living Paycheck to Paycheck
[21:54] What Would Esteban Do Differently If He Started His Business Over?
[25:18] Advice for Real Estate Investors
[28:23] Connect With Esteban
Quotes:
[04:08] “It’s hard for [new entrepreneurs] to understand that they need to create not only a system to generate leads and closings…but be able to grow through people.”
[15:00] “One of the biggest things that I do not have, because I do not have a CFO or someone that is financially like an expert inside of my company, and that’s kind of like one of my biggest pain points.”
[25:54] “I was trying to keep almost every single penny as possible…It felt real good to have…good profits. [But] I was not utilizing those profits to properly. [I didn’t] put it back into the things that will make me grow and make me more money.”
Connect with Esteban
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/estenick
Linktree for redirects to his businesses and podcast: https://linktr.ee/estenick
Tired of living deal to deal?
If you are a real estate investor or business owner who is tired of living deal to deal, and want to double your profits, head over here to book your no-obligation discovery call with me. Either myself or someone from my team will hop on a short call with you to get clear on your business goals, remove any obstacles holding you back, and map out a game plan to help you finally start keeping more of the money you work so hard to make. – David
Transcription:
Esteban Andrade:
First of all this money that is coming in, how do I make sure that I am using the proper amount of money to pay myself, but I’m also using the proper amount of money to do research and development to reinvest back into a specific, uh, investments, right?
Outro:
If you’re a real estate investor who’s sick and tired of living deal to deal, then welcome home. Hear from everyday real estate investors just like you, and discover how they’ve completely transformed their business by taking a profit First approach. This is the profit first for REI podcast, where we believe revenue is vanity. Profit is sanity. It’s time to start making profit a habit in your business. So here’s your host, David Richter.
David Richter:
Hey, we have Esteban Andra here today. He talks a lot about what his businesses have gone through, how he’s felt about wolfing, paycheck to paycheck. Sometimes we do spend a lot of time talking about his different revenue streams as well too. So I hope this brings you not only the hope of where you’re coming from and where you can go too, but also that people, no matter what they’re doing, a lot of them just don’t know those three simple numbers, what they’re making, spending, keeping. We talk about that with Esteban right here on the show. Thank you for listening. We couldn’t be where we are without you. Please have a good rest of your day and enjoy this episode. Hey everyone, we have Esteban Andra here. I’m super excited to have him on. We’re actually using his services currently. Uh, we need someone to help us and he’s gonna talk a little bit about that, but Esteban has started the Profit First Journey and the system, but I wanna get him on here. So, Esteban, thank you so much for being a part of the show today.
Esteban Andrade:
Thank you, David. It’s an honor to be, uh, speaking in a podcast of an author of a great book,
David Richter:
<laugh>. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And what I wanna do is dive a little bit into what you’re doing, how you’ve got things set up, you know, how you’re helping the real estate industry, but also, you know, you’ve also started the Profit First system, so, you know, just telling a little bit about that. Maybe we can do some interactive things on here as well too today. But give a little bit about your background here and you know, what you’ve got going on.
Esteban Andrade:
Absolutely. So background first is that I studied engineering, so I’m an engineer by graduation. That’s what my university certificate actually says that I am. I went to, uh, Carleton University in Ottawa and ultimately become a real estate, um, real estate entrepreneur. Like after I graduated from university in Canada, I went to this automotive world in Detroit. But then it’s funny because from cars and working in cars, signing cars and being able to earn good money as an engineer and working my ass off, I found that there was like a hidden gap. Like there’s a, there’s this gap in real estate, uh, for real estate investors, and I wanted to become a real estate investor so bad. So in Detroit, it’s very easy to fall in love with the potential of real estate because there are so many houses and buildings
David Richter:
Yeah.
Esteban Andrade:
That need, uh, repair. So that’s kind where I started my entire journey falling in love with like real estate architecture of Detroit and, uh, ultimately helping other people that needed help in the real estate side. Right.
David Richter:
Awesome. So then now you’re helping real estate investors. You have a virtual assistance service and you’ve got, and just talk about that a little bit.
Esteban Andrade:
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the biggest gaps that we see from real estate investors is they perhaps start, uh, generating appointments and they perhaps start closing these appointments and closing them into contracts, getting deals done. Um, a lot of real estate investors start their journey by themselves, solo printers, and that’s completely fine. Some of them are common in as partners, uh, but through time, um, a lot of people really um, it’s hard for them to understand that they need to create a, not only a system to generate them leads and closings and, you know, appointments and closings, but be able to grow through people. And, uh, sometimes it’s very hard to find talent in your local market or just to find talent at all. Um, and also people that start this business now have learned to also start it remotely. So there is businesses out there, real estate investors that ultimately are buying houses outside of their market or buying houses in like another state that is like miles and miles away and they have a virtual business and have a remote business. But regardless of that, the whole goal is to go and grow through people. So we thought that there was a gap of people, uh, of investors, not able to find talent right quickly, not able to have access to talent quickly because they have to go through this Indeed application or LinkedIn job host. Uh, and being able to bring in all this unqualified people, but ultimately also pay them so much, uh, because they are going to be a local employee. But you are a startup, you’re a small business owner, right? So how can you actually be profitable, uh, starting out if you have to hire like local employees, if you have to hire local people, like you are gonna be very tight and you will not be able to reinvest any profits as quickly as you would if you do the remote part of it, the remote acquisition of people. So that’s where we come in. Remotelatinos.com comes in as that, uh, perfect partner that will help you not only get prepared to meet a players and prepare you to meet a players, but interview them properly, help them get an amazing onboarding because real estate investors in wholesalers, now that they’re into this business, need to understand that they have to be able to hire an A player but retain the A player. So we’re gonna be able to help them on the retention part of the A player. We’re gonna be able to help them on the first 30 days of the A player and even help them like, just check in with this real state Latino VA virtual assistant that can do almost anything and everything in your business and just give your time back. So time back is what’s something that you are gonna get from it. You’re gonna also be able to work with people that are in your same time zone. People that are graduated from university in their country or in the United States. They have perfect English and they’re able to take your business pain points and you’re basically any bottleneck that you have in your business cuz you have no more time to do that or you don’t really wanna put time into this busy work now you’re gonna give it to a lead manager right now, you’re gonna give it to a, uh, executive assistant. Now you’re gonna give it to, for example, you guys a advertising manager. Now you’re gonna give it to your, a social media manager. Now you’re gonna hire a potential acquisitions, uh, remote Latino VA like someone that helps you acquire properties.
David Richter:
Yeah, so you can see he’s going, he’s got a lot of different of those aspects for you in the real estate world, which I absolutely love cuz I do see a lot of that. Now, Esteban, I wanna get into your business and you had mentioned before we got on talking about the different revenue streams and maybe even, I don’t know, we’re testing out something here on this episode, maybe giving some coaching and guidance here, you know, on like what Esteban is doing. And you know, like that’s where I wanted to download from you. Okay, what are the different revenue streams? What are you going through? You know, maybe talk about profit first and like what you have set up and what else can be done. So why don’t you give us a download of, you know, where you are right now in your business?
Esteban Andrade:
For sure. So I have a few revenue streams. Um, I’m gonna go towards the most profitable, the highest revenue. The first one is that I created a real estate marketing business and this real estate marketing business, ultimately, uh, it drives motivated sellers to investors through paid advertising. Uh, so we have investors pay us in a, let’s say 16 week, six months or 12 months. And we seldom this package so that ultimately they’re invested into a long-term play for marketing. They pay us a package, either a paying or they pay us a package in a monthly basis. So overall, as we stack up our clients and we have over, um, 60 clients now we have a recurring revenue, right? Like at the beginning, like whenever I was doing wholesaling, uh, it was like a long sale cycle, so I would have to wait
David Richter:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Esteban Andrade:
A few months sometimes for a deal to close and get the money in my bank. But here I get paid, like someone gets into a call, we agree that this makes sense for both of us, and I can get paid that same day. I can get paid the day after or during the follow up call, but I can get paid in during that same week span. So now we have a recurring business model, right? A recurring revenue business model, and that’s what’s called, uh, that we have a monthly recurring revenue on that. And that’s number one. Number two, I have, uh, the remote Latino side, which is the virtual assistant placement and recruitment, uh, agency. We pick and handpick, uh, a players, uh, rock stars and we put them into real estate businesses, inside of estate businesses. And we ensure that these are going to stay with our client. And we do that and we have a one-time pay for placement. And after that there is a monthly fee where it’s basically an assurance that we are properly managing and helping you with that person. And that comes with an insurance, all right? Where you can come back, uh, for a period of time, you can come back and if the va if the employee that didn’t work, we can replace it, right? We can go ahead and replace it once again. And the other revenue streams is, uh, I do coach people in marketing, all right? I do coach people in, um, systems marketing and sales. Uh, so, people that get, you know, give me this, the opportunity to get, create this other revenue are other real estate marketing agencies or marketers that really wanna learn about real estate marketing. Um, real estate investors don’t wanna learn it themselves. So we go into a done with you format where they ultimately, uh, pay me a one time or breaking down into two, we go into a six weeks period of done with you and they pay me like about right now it’s like 5,000 or something. And they end up going through the modules that already have pre-created and also a weekly kind of like coaching training on how to do Facebook ads, how to do Google ads, how to properly do the systems for it. And then the fourth one, uh, that will have is all the affiliate stuff. So I have people that are ultimately, um, sending, we are sending them clients and they’re sending us clients, but there is software or there is, uh, other services that our clients use and that we also offer to them. Why? Because I, that these people need it. So for example, uh, if they need to create a corporation, we send it to them, right? We send it to like a, um, someone like, uh, prime Corporate, right?
David Richter:
yeah
Esteban Andrade:
If they ultimately need a skip tracer, we send it to someone that has a great skip tracing, if they need, for example, a Profit first model where it’s a CFO type of, uh, program, then we will be sending it to, uh, David Richer and the team. So those are more of affiliate comes in. Um, I have to give my, uh, I think it’s a 10 99 that I send every single time and uh, and I get paid. And that one I only get paid because if I put my word out or my team puts the word out, we get paid, the company gets paid on their, uh, on that. And, uh, it’s more of like, more of a, becomes more of a passive income type of thing cuz we just use a word. We don’t do too much effort into like selling it, right? But it’s definitely part of our process that will be kind of like, uh, the main four sources of income. The other one, the fifth one would be, uh, the real estate that we have, right? Um, so we have real estate, uh, acquired outside of the country. We have real estate acquired here inside of the country. And they both are mainly for long rentals, like long-term rentals, right? So the real estate that we acquire outside of the country, we try to do long-term rentals and um, if it makes sense, we do Airbnb. Uh, but the long-term rental is, it’s a game that we like the name of, its like gotta be just long term. And the other one would be, um, uh, the syndications that are part of this and uh, that we are part of, for example, pays more visas, uh, that gives us a monthly, uh, a monthly payment based on an agreed compound that we have, right? Um, an IRR that we have discussed prior to getting to the deal and being able to get paid. And at the end of two years, two to two to five years, we get paid at profit. So, uh, that’s kind of like, uh, where we are, the five, the main five streams of income that we currently have.
David Richter:
Awesome. Okay. So then from there, what do you need help with then on that side? You know, like or what <laugh> do you have any issues going into these businesses or anything on the financial end?
Esteban Andrade:
I think that one of the biggest things that almost every single business struggle and I struggle is first of all, all this money that is coming in, how do I make sure that I am using the proper amount of money to pay myself, but I’m also using the proper amount of money to do research and development to reinvest back into a specific, uh, investments, right? Or to invest back into a mastermind. So that’s kind of like one of the biggest things that I do not have cuz I do not have a C F O or someone that is financially like an expert inside of my company. Um, and that’s kinda like one of the biggest pain points. Like, like for example, um, right now I don’t know if I exactly need to be paying myself $87,000 a year compared to like $300,000 a year or $150,000. I don’t know that right now. And that’s also because I only have read, um, profit first just a quarter of the way, right? <laugh> and uh, and someone like you would come in and tell me a better, you know, a better answer to that.
David Richter:
Well, let me ask you, is it, are you supporting yourself? Do you have a family? Do you have kids?
Esteban Andrade:
Uh, I don’t have kids. Um, I, the only thing that would be like similar to a kid’s dog is a dog. So I’m sure I’m asleep. <laugh>,
David Richter:
<laugh> You’re a free agent? No, uh, no wife or do you have a girlfriend?
Esteban Andrade:
<laugh>? Um, so I, no, we recently like went through a breakup, so,
David Richter:
Okay, well then there you go. The, you’re hearing everything on this podcast, you know, about
Esteban Andrade:
<laugh>
David Richter:
Esteban’s life, but that’s where we ask a lot of people is where you need to be. And those closest to you, do you have business partners in any of these revenue streams?
Esteban Andrade:
Um, so only in, uh, only in two. So the, the Latino side, which is the virtual assistant and the property acquisitions, um, outside of the country. Um, so that would be my parents, but uh, the one that is inside of the country, that will be by myself.
David Richter:
Yeah, that would be the first thing I look at is what do I need to make that provides me with my current lifestyle? And then what do the business partners that we have in these businesses do they need something specific from that business? That’s what I would build first and then say, can I build everything else around that? Then a lot of people just say, I, you know, winning the prayer plan, you know, like, I hope this works out, or like, I hope 87,000 is good or like, I wanna pay myself more, but I don’t know if I can. It’s like, well, okay, we gotta, we gotta see what do I really need on a monthly basis for the lifestyle that I want to live as the owner and make sure that, okay, do I have enough to be able to grow the business after that as well too? What do we have coming in? A lot of people don’t know what they’re making, spending and keeping in their business. That’s what we have to make sure. Can we break that down per business? Those are the couple questions I would ask yourself first, who are the other people in my life and in these businesses that depend on it or need something from it and then go from there. But that would be one of the big things. My next question to would be to you do you know down to the penny almost how much you’re making spending and keeping from each of these businesses?
Esteban Andrade:
Um, yeah, so like the the net profit, how much for each one of the business? Well I know that for instance,
David Richter:
No, not even net <laugh> for, well I’m talking about in cash, like what are you making from each business in revenue? You know, like that’s coming in, how much are you spending out the door every month? And then what are you actually keeping? Are you keeping any of it? Now I’m, I don’t care about some number on some p and l that shows up on your QuickBooks account. I’m talking about like, do you keep any of it from each business? So that’s what I’m talking about. Do you know what you make, spend and keep from the businesses to clarify?
Esteban Andrade:
hmmmm, gotcha. Yeah, so you know, if we were to talk about PN PNLs and things like that, that is something that it would not give a clear picture to your answer, but I definitely know that at least every single month I want to keep for myself a specific percentage and I look, here’s one, here’s what I actually, um, do whenever I allocate a specific, uh, amount every single month and this is like the first few chapters that I learned from Profit First. And is that if you are looking to have like a specific revenue, uh, income in your business, then you have to have like, and let’s say it’s, it’s a specific range. You have to have a percentage of real profit like owners pay that you want to keep. So right now, even though I’m not paying that myself as a w to that exact amount, cuz you might know better, I’m keeping at least 10%, that’s what I’m keeping. All right? Uh, and that will be the owner’s pay. So that is exactly like what would be I exactly would put into my business. But now the problem is that I don’t know how I would translate that into like a W two pay, right? If I keep
David Richter:
sure
Esteban Andrade:
10% of like my millions dollars of business, then that means that do I have to pay myself as a DA two, all of that, or like I just keep it in that specific bank account that I created for that, right?
David Richter:
Sure, yeah, totally get that. And that all depends on how your business is set up and all that stuff, like for the W2 part. But for like the cash part, it’s easy. You put 10% in the account and you have it sitting there if you wanna pay yourself w2 or if it exceeds w2, then you start taking draws out of there as well too. So that way it’s a split between, you know, the salary you pay yourself and then draws it. You can take on a monthly basis. But yeah, that sounds like a good setup to have at the first. So I couple last questions here. Have you ever run into situations in your business where you’ve been in cash crunches or felt like you’re living paycheck to paycheck in your businesses?
Esteban Andrade:
<laugh>? Um, yes. Um, <laugh> and I definitely felt like, maybe not this month exactly, but the months prior to that and it was, even though it was not real and it was because the revenue decreased just a little bit, right? And we still have the same type of expenses and I know that whenever a revenue decrease and there is a non-performance of sales, I have to reinvest back into the business. So I had, I was spending more than regular, so obviously that filling was like, oh, I’m leaving paycheck to paycheck, even though the entirety of the year I was like always net positive. But that feeling itself of the few months of the, let’s say three months in consecutively, it was exactly that. Wow, I’m leaving paycheck to paycheck.
David Richter:
Yeah, it’s hard sometimes it’s hard to see the macro view when the micro’s not going too well, you know, like when the months are are hurting you, but the years going well overall. So I definitely get that a lot of people are in that place. If you were to start your business over again or any of these businesses, would you do anything different?
Esteban Andrade:
Well, yeah, man, honestly, um, if I were to start, first of all, I will set up my business correctly. For the longest time I did not set up my business to be a, I knew I was gonna make money. I knew I was gonna make a lot of money and I was working work real hard and I only did an L L C and I did an escort really late. Uh, so that means that I set it up as an L L C, but I was being taxed in LLC and I made a million dollars and I got taxed as an llc. I did not get taxed as an S corp. So that’s one of the biggest things. So setting up everything, but not only setting up like the business structure, but like setting up on how I’m gonna get paid. Listen,
David Richter:
Yeah,
Esteban Andrade:
Sometimes one of my businesses, um, would come in and ask for our clients for the ad spend. And that money, for example, is not money that I’m responsible. Like, I’m only responsible for managing ad spend, but I’m only responsible just to paying Facebook towards that. So if I have it in the same bank account, like as everything, cuz my client gives me the entirety of that money, then I’m not gonna, uh, I’m not gonna be able to know and track separate which one is which. So how much did I exactly spend from ad spend compared to like how much did I exactly, uh, got from the payment that my client actually gave me? And that is because I get clients, I get clients, I get clients, and even though I know that a specific client is only spending a maximum of $1,500 a month, let’s say on ad spend or $2,000 a month on ad spend, I still have to do transactions with my own credit cards on that specific account to Facebook or to Google or such. And it all becomes mayhem. Like it’s very, very hard now to start tracking things. So being able to like, uh, properly create different bank accounts, that’s something I would do. And look man, I honestly like, I would love to like listen from your part, um, separating ad spend, separating taxes, separating my actual management profits and stuff like that. Um, like I would listen, I would love to listen on your end like a model like mine where I get to have money, uh, in smaller chunks than like an assignment fee, for example. Uh, and I have to be able to track it separately because otherwise it would become a crazy mess, uh, if I don’t set it up in the beginning. So I guess
David Richter:
Yeah
Esteban Andrade:
Like I would love to listen to you on that side.
David Richter:
Well, there you go. So yeah, <laugh>, well we’ve got a lot of content out there, that’s for sure. And we’ve got the book, make sure you finish the book so that way you can start implementing that cuz that’s what I think will help the most. But yeah, I get that a lot of people wish <laugh>. I have a lot of people when I go out there and speak now or just come up and say, man, I wish this thing would’ve been around 20 years ago, or, you know, that I wish I would’ve started this at the very beginning and I’d have so much more money now, you know, than I would have if I, would’ve set this up so long ago. So we hear that a lot for sure. Then what would you give as advice, as parting advice to the real estate investing community here? Uh, before I, the last question I have
Esteban Andrade:
For sure. Do you want me to give them a life advice, making sure that they
David Richter:
anything,
Esteban Andrade:
money, advice, anything? Um,
David Richter:
Yeah, some of your best advice that you could give them.
Esteban Andrade:
<laugh> Let me just real think about this one because I have a few advice is that I gave myself, um, so, uh, if I were to go back and, um, before I started my business, um, I was trying to like keep almost every single penny, uh, as possible after I made money. And because it felt good, it felt, uh, real good to have some sort of good profits and some sort of good bank account and, sexy look that is growing, right? And I was not utilizing those profits to, uh, properly putting it back into the things that will make me grow and make me more money. And it was mostly because the lack of knowledge of
David Richter:
yeah,
Esteban Andrade:
How much money should I actually be able to afford to pay to reinvest back into the business? Well, I did not have any, some sort of projection, right? So I did not have any sort of, um, roadmap that will tell me, look, Esteban, you just made $2,000 in this sale and you’re, you have two more clients coming in, which means that you’re gonna have $6,000. That means that for the next two, three weeks, you’re gonna be able to spend let’s say 60% of that and put it back in ad spend marketing and put it back into like solidifying your, your systems and you’re gonna be good. Why? Because the projected amount is gonna be that. So holding to my profits was one of my biggest holdbacks because I did not know that I could accelerate my growth in a very, a structured fashion right? In a very, uh, coordinated fashion because having money and seeing the money in the bank account, it was a good feeling, right?
David Richter:
Yeah.
Esteban Andrade:
It’s not like I did not understand the concept of investing I did. It’s just that it was hard to let it go because I had the money in here and I see it, right?
David Richter:
Right.
Esteban Andrade:
And then when it disappears, it’s a weird feeling. It’s like feeling like, oh, I’m broke, or something like that, right? So I did not want to have that feeling. So letting go of your profits real fast is one of the biggest things, um, that I would give myself away because it means growth, it means, you know, reinvesting back quickly into marketing, into like, teams, into getting my time back into being able to like have a better, yeah, just better allocated peace of mind and time into the business that I’m creating.
David Richter:
Yeah. Awesome. No, good stuff. I like it. And then where would people go to find you? Where’s the best place to find you? With all the stuff that you’re doing, you’ve got a lot of stuff to help people. So what’s the best pace?
Esteban Andrade:
Um, so people can actually visit me on Instagram. My Instagram is kinda our, it’s kind of like my new business card, right? And you’re gonna be able to find a link tray in my Instagram, which is @estenick and that has everything. So my Instagram, you can find me, e s t e n i c k, you can follow me, message me. I’m currently, answering my messages. Um, and, uh, you’re gonna be able to see everything that we have going. So link three will, you’ll see my businesses in there hasmedia.com. Um, we’re gonna be able to give a free good, uh, freebies and goodies in there, including our podcast. Uh, but ultimately you’re gonna be able to see, we have hasmedia.com where you can speak with our team about potentially running lead generation campaigns from online, marketing. We have remotelatinos.com where you could potentially get a remote Latino VA or someone around the globe that is able to give, you know, give you the time freedom and help you scale your business. Um, such as like the service that we’re doing to David. Um, and, uh, we have the podcast where we’re giving like tactical advice and great hats and great secrets away, um, for a specific real estate investing so that it can increase their conversions so that they can get more deals done, they can keep more money, they can create wealth. And David Richard actually is gonna be part of that podcast. We’re gonna go very tactical, we’re gonna be going very strategic and stuff like that. So I’m gonna make him s you know, give a lot of good value in there. Um, and, uh, and we, yeah, you’re gonna be able to find our other socials, LinkedIn, Facebook, same thing at estenick. Um, and I’ll be more than happy to, you know, listen to what you got and if you need any help with online lead generation or uh, hiring virtual assistance from Latin America and finding rock stars, I’ll be happy to do it.
David Richter:
Awesome. Well, there you go. Go to his Instagram, uh, connect with him there. Then if you are wondering where your profits are going or wondering where you are needing to be, if you’re listening to this right now, head over to simplecfo.com. We’ve got our team of CFOs. We’d love to l e c if we’re a good fit for you. If we can help you keep more of what you’re making, knowing what you’re making, spending, keeping, if you’re tired of running in that rat race or living paycheck to paycheck, we’d have to see if we could help you. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you Esteban, for being here. And then remember, make profit a habit in your business. Thanks again, man.
Esteban Andrade:
Thank you.
Outro:
This episode of The Profit First for REI podcast is over, but there are plenty more where that came from. Are you ready to learn how David and his team can help implement the Profit First system in your business? Schedule a discovery call @ simplecfo.com right now. We’ll see you next time on The Profit First for REI podcast with David Richter.
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